Fourthly because I find extreme difficulty understanding why Jesus would give to John a vision that speaks of the character of the church during seven successive periods of history (chapters 2 to 3), followed by a second, concurrent vision of the church/world during four successive periods of history (chapter 6:1-8)?

2-4-1  CRITIC: It is the principle of repeat and enlarge that plays a vital role in the development of end-time events. It is the same with the book of Daniel.

I accept and understand the principle, but I do not see how we can apply it here – for I do not see how such an application expands anything, or how it enlarges anything, or how it in any way improves our understanding of this period of history. Confuses? Yes! Enlarges? No! Maybe you can help me here?

CRITIC: I'll try. As you say, the closing message to the churches is to Laodicea, a people judged. As in Daniel, God focuses in on this aspect in the next repeat and enlarge vision. While God begins again with the basic outline (early church/white horse, persecution/red horse, compromise/ black horse, dead faith/ pale horse etc), the main focus of chapters 6 and 7  is judgment. The fifth seal opens the investigative judgment (Philadelphia/Laodicia); it begins with the faithful dead who all receive white robes (I'm moving quickly through time here) but must wait for the faithful yet to be sealed. Chapter seven gives even more detail and focus on the judgment/sealing time pointing to the tribes of Israel and the resulting multitude that no man can number who will be sealed and saved.

So we touch on the judgment in the latter part of Rev 2/3 vision and find more detail in the Rev 4-7 vision. The Rev 8-11 vision does the same by contrasting God's way of passing the judgment (the incense or righteousness of Christ) with the many false religious systems of the world who base salvation on works (Judaism, Romanism, Catholicism, Islam, even Atheism). Chapter 10 offers an interlude which takes us back to Daniel, the Messiah and the cross). The Rev 8-11 vision closes by again pointing to the judgment "measure the temple" (Rev 11:1) as it applies to God and directs our attention to the ark where we find mercy and law; (Rev. 11:19). I could go on but I think you can see where I am coming from. I do have some studies on this if you are interested.

That is not quite the point I am trying to make. You say that the "four horse period" is superimposed over the "seven church period." Whichever way we superimpose a 4 segment circle (four horses) over a 7 segment circle (seven churches) we land up with confusion. For example, sticking to the figure of “segmented circles,” the 2^nd and 6^th segments of our seven segment circle, which are the Smyrna and Philadelphia churches/eras, receive no condemnation from Jesus. How do these “good” churches/eras/segments superimpose over the last three supposedly “evil” segments of the 4 segment circle? I would suggest, rather, that these two accounts deal with two totally unrelated scenes and with two totally different time periods – and all the evidence thus far suggests that this is the case. The way I see it, Chapters 4 - 5 take place, at least in part, in the light of Laodicea's failings and they introduce us to God's contingency plan for just such a time as this - a plan that includes judgments (four horses etcetera).

CRITIC: I don't see it quite that way though I can totally sympathize with your point here. To me the white horse parallels the early church. Red horse persecution of Smyrna. Black horse compromise of Pergamos and Thyatira. Pale horse death of Sardis.  Fifth seal opening of judgment. Philadelphia "open door" and Laodicea "people judged."

The purpose of repeat & enlarge is not to overlap perfectly but rather to repeat and enlarge upon specific information that is most important. Daniel's visions do not overlap perfectly, the last two don't even mention Babylon and barely mention Media but spend much focus on the little horn power, along with the judgment. These two themes happen to some of the most controversial issues in the world today and are also emphasized in Revelation. As in Daniel the repeat and enlarge visions of Revelation emphasize more of the end time issues and people as they progress, dropping some of the earlier subjects. You don't find much allusion to the early church in the latter part of Revelation; some (woman in Rev 12, remnant) but not much.

Once again, please note that "the teachings of this book [of Revelation] are definite, not mystical and unintelligible." (Ms 107, 1897, pp. 1, 2).

If only what you suggest were a little more obvious and logical I would find it easier to believe. While I am deeply grateful for the time and effort that you have devoted to sharing your convictions with me, and while I must praise God for the mind that He has given you, my simple stumbling mind demands something a little more logical and believable and easy to grasp. To my mind, and in the light of all the evidence that I have presented, your interpretation, unlike mine, is still "mystical" and "unintelligible" - and certainly way beyond the comprehension of the average man. In all honesty, I sincerely believe that God would have given us something more concrete and logical to build our faith upon.

Should my reader wish to contribute to this discussion, please click here to send an email. Should you wish to make an extensive contribution then press Edit, Select All and copy this entire page to MS WORD. Now, in the resultant MS WORD document, you may insert your comments into the copy in a unique color and then save this document as REV2-4 and attach it to the email above before sending it. TO ENSURE THAT YOUR EMAIL IS NOT REJECTED AS SPAM PLEASE ENTER THE WORDS "REVELATION INSIGHTS" IN THE SUBJECT LINE OF YOUR EMAIL.